The psychological power of forgiveness in South AfricaThe psychological power of forgiveness in South Africa
All In The Mind
Psychologist Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela was on South Africa's historic Truth and Reconciliation Commission, chairing many of its tortuous public hearings about atrocities committed in the apartheid era. In an unprecedented dialogue she met with one of apartheid's most abhorrent killers, in jail, to explore forgiveness, psychological redemption and the symbolic language of trauma. She joins Natasha Mitchell in a feature interview.
30:15•2 Feb 2008
Radical Forgiveness, Deep Trauma and Facing the "Prime Evil"
Episode Overview
- Forgiveness is described as a gradual, relational process that rests on genuine remorse and acknowledgement, rather than a single moment or gesture.
- Apartheid is framed as an "apartheid of the mind", where religion and psychology combined to make whole groups of people seem less than human.
- Pumla’s meetings with Eugene de Kock reveal the unsettling power of empathy, including her distress at touching the "trigger hand" of a man seen as the embodiment of evil.
- Stories from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission show how speaking about trauma, even imperfectly, helps victims reclaim their sense of reality and dignity.
- Trauma is shown to pass between generations through games, anger and humiliation, highlighting the need for honest dialogue and broader social change, including economic justice.
“"Forgiveness is not an event."”
What can we learn from those who have battled addiction, violence and deep injustice about the meaning of forgiveness? Here, psychologist Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela talks with host Natasha Mitchell about what happens to the mind when people are turned into enemies, and what it might take to bring them back into the circle of humanity.
Speaking from her experience on South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission, Pumla describes how apartheid was "an apartheid of the mind", where psychology and religion were used to split people into "us" and "other" so completely that some no longer saw their victims as human beings. She explains how this inner split allows cruelty to feel justified, and why facing that capacity in ourselves is so unsettling.
You'll hear her extraordinary account of meeting Eugene de Kock, nicknamed "Prime Evil", the head of apartheid death squads. Pumla is shaken when widows of his victims say, "I forgive him unconditionally" and even describe their tears as "tears for him as well". Her decision to reach out and touch his trembling hand – later revealed by him as his "trigger hand" – forces her to question what empathy for someone labelled evil actually means.
Pumla unpacks her idea of "radical forgiveness" as a slow, relational process that depends on genuine remorse and acknowledgement, not quick absolution. She shares how trauma can pass between generations, like young girls in a township play-acting a "necklace" killing they never witnessed, and why telling these stories, however clumsily, helps people reclaim their voices.
For anyone interested in recovery, justice, or healing after harm, this conversation offers a candid look at how facing horror, speaking honestly and engaging in real dialogue might open a path towards change. It leaves you asking: what does forgiveness actually require, and could you ever offer it yourself?
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