Thomas Szasz speaks (Part 2 of 2)Thomas Szasz speaks (Part 2 of 2)
All In The Mind
In 1961 maverick psychiatrist and libertarian Professor Thomas Szasz published his controversial and influential epic, The Myth of Mental Illness. Half a century later he maintains we live in a therapeutic state—a 'pharmacracy'—and that psychiatry is a 'pseudoscientific racket'. On the eve of his 89th birthday he joins Natasha Mitchell in conversation. Next week, psychiatrists respond.
29:56•11 Apr 2009
Thomas Szasz on Mental Illness, Freedom and Addiction Labels
Episode Overview
- Szasz challenges the idea that behaviours, including addiction, can be classified as diseases, arguing only the body can be diseased.
- He criticises involuntary psychiatric interventions, likening psychiatric hospitals to prisons and some treatments to torture.
- He sees many people in mental hospitals as there for social or economic reasons, not demonstrable biological illness.
- Szasz supports voluntary use of counselling, psychiatric drugs or even illicit substances, but insists people should bear the consequences of their choices.
- He views genuine help as serious conversation and listening, rather than "treatment" that turns people into objects or patients.
“Behaviour is not a disease. It cannot be a disease. Only the body can predicate disease.”
Curious about how others navigate their sobriety journey? This conversation with maverick psychiatrist Professor Thomas Szasz might surprise you, especially if you've ever been told your drinking or drug use is a medical disease. Speaking with host Natasha Mitchell on All In The Mind, Szasz revisits the arguments from his infamous book *The Myth of Mental Illness* and pushes them even further.
He insists that what we call "mental illness" is really "problems of living" rather than diseases of the brain, stating bluntly, "Behaviour is not a disease. It cannot be a disease. Only the body can predicate disease." For anyone wrestling with addiction labels, diagnoses, or involuntary treatment, this hits right at the heart of how suffering is defined. The episode moves between archive interviews from the 1970s and a fresh discussion recorded on the eve of Szasz’s 89th birthday.
You’ll hear him attack coercive psychiatric practices, comparing psychiatric hospitals to prisons and some treatments to torture, and arguing that many people are locked away for being poor, eccentric or unwanted rather than ill. He’s equally fierce about forced drugging, school psychology programmes, and state-run health systems that make people dependent instead of responsible. Yet Szasz isn’t against voluntary help.
He describes his own work more like counselling or conversation, where two adults talk seriously about life’s dilemmas—marriage, divorce, addiction, despair—without one being the "doctor" and the other the "patient". He sees talking and being truly listened to as essential, suggesting that without it "you go crazy". For people interested in recovery, this episode offers a challenging perspective on diagnosis, medication, choice and responsibility.
It won’t give you easy answers, but it might make you question who gets to define your struggles and your path forward. Are you ready to rethink what it means to be "ill" and what it means to take charge of your own life?
Do you want to link to this podcast?
Get the buttons here!
More From This Show
The latest episodes from the same podcast.