#364 - Justin Lakemacher & Jonathan Hayashi | Mark E. Shaw

#364 - Justin Lakemacher & Jonathan Hayashi | Mark E. Shaw

What can we learn from those who have battled addiction and now sit on the counselling side of the room? This conversation brings together Dr. Mark E. Shaw with pastors and biblical counsellors Dr. Jonathan Hayashi and Justin Lackamacher to talk honestly about some of the hardest moments in gospel-centred addiction counselling. A big focus is on working with deceptive counselees – those who lie, minimise, or simply don’t see their own sin.

Justin explains that "we lie to protect idols" and calls dishonesty "a symptom of disordered worship." He shares how teaching the attributes of God and the fear of the Lord (Psalm 139, Proverbs, Titus 1) can help people see that they live constantly before a God "who never lies" and are called to be truth-tellers. Jonathan picks up the theme of careful, patient questioning: "He who gives an answer before he listens, this is foolishness and disgrace" (Proverbs 18:13).

He talks about reading the "fruit" of a person’s life to reveal the "root" of the heart and using categories of conscience – uninformed, wounded, and seared – to counsel each person differently, especially in complex addiction and abuse cases. They also tackle why some believers keep God at arm’s length, treat Bible reading as a chore, or refuse to confess sin clearly.

Practical stories show how Scripture, not technique, does the real work: from sticky notes with verses on anger taped around a chaotic home to careful explanations of true repentance as a change of mind, heart, and direction. Throughout, the episode leans strongly into the sufficiency of Scripture and the importance of community among counsellors.

If you’re working with addicted or struggling people—and sometimes wondering if you’re in over your head—this conversation might help you feel less alone and more grounded in God’s word. How might these approaches reshape the way you handle hard-hearted or hurting counselees?